Curse

Divinitys Creature · Jul 16, 2005, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

I personally love the staves. I am not sure why we made the change, come to think of it. I'll ask around and see. It could have been any reason at all, from "This is a cooler idea" to "downloading those assets are slowing those in dial-up." There are so many (!) considerations to every change. Hey, maybe rank staves are coming back in another form.... Hmmm...

\/\/00t, that's very intriguing Gaile. Staves and /fame emotes can live in harmony and look double cool

. But to save on the bandwidth if one needs to be chosen, we made a poll at TGH.

While I have your ear, can you please see if faction can be increased a bit more so we can get skill points as fast as in PvE (25 minutes comfortably, 14 minutes for us at KARMA). That is the main thing PvPers would like at the moment. A bonus would be if you retroactively award skill points for fame please? You can find my main post about this linked from my profile here but I'm sure you read it on TGH. If you wish I'll compile all the data available. BTW thanks again for making the faction system happen and patching it .

FengShuiBundi · Jul 17, 2005, 03:21 AM // 03:21

I second Divinity's post. Thank you for paying attention to us PvPers, it is a nice feeling to know that our ideas are being heard. There are still some rough edges with the PvP system, but it's great that you (Gaile) are listening.

Wa$d · Jul 17, 2005, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Gaile,

Real quick, What are you guys doing to make it so we dont all look like "clones" of each other? I dont like being No. 14321 Warrior/Monk out of No.231234. Just been wondering what you have been planned.

Weezer_Blue · Jul 17, 2005, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Fame Staves were way cooler

Perth68 · Jul 17, 2005, 09:28 AM // 09:28

I would defenetly like more unique items , I would despise any really good items in any place pvp or pve. For me the main selling point of the game (beside no monthly cost :P) was that power was from builds and skill not from items or levels.

A rare powerful weapon system dosent work for me, I don't have the heart,charisma,or patience for trading and I don't have the time or skill for farming.

Xoduz · Jul 17, 2005, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

So, let me propose a thought: It's not "uber items," so much as "ultra cool and rare and wonderful" items, for many of us. It's "Maybe nobody in the entire server has this exact bow, or this cool shield, or this spiffy pair of Charr Fur Slippers." So I want to ask you this:

If items had the same combat-related stats, so as to avoid the unbalancing effects of uber items, but were unique in appearance, would that satisfy some of the craving?

Well yes, but it's a short term solution.

Once you get your Goldskin armor, did you ever want to get rid of it? I'd guess probably not

So your normal GW player who has Obsidian armor is basically set, and won't be upgrading unless they see an even better cosmetic change that they like.

That can't be the end-all of the game, or players will be bored out of their minds, no matter how cool they look.

Ultimately, gamers want progression. Every time they log in, they want to be able to log out with some tangible result. For PvP'ers, that is the guild Ladder, Tombs, Rank, unlocking, etc. But for PvE'ers, that stops once they have Ascended and made their character look the way they want.

What I suggest, is to look for ways for Character's to progress, outside of unbalancing items. If you make the progression worthwhile, and difficult enough, players would feel more rewarded.

Create more non-combat rewards. Most "hardcore" raiding guilds measure themselves by what they can kill, and how many times they have killed it. I could link to a dozen guilds in EQ that constantly scrolled how many times they killed certain bosses on the frontpage of their websites. If A.net could build into the game a way to display that info, it would be taking a step in the right direction imo. This could be done as simple as a Ladder, or it could be via a displayable upgrade's in a Guild Hall.

Also, "Competitive" PvE is something to look at. I like the idea of PvE arenas, where in the group competes for a high score. Think of an arena like Tetris, throwing more monsters into your group faster and faster as time goes on. The more monsters you kill, the longer your team last, the higher your score. Then, compare your high score to others to see how you rank, etc. Even have rewards, akin to the PvP tournament rewards, for the winners, and you would be creating HUGE replayability. Maybe you could have tournaments with the grand prize Goldskin-like Armor?

arredondo · Jul 17, 2005, 11:08 AM // 11:08

Quote:

For PvP'ers, that is the guild Ladder, Tombs, Rank, unlocking, etc.

Unlocking and item acquisition is a PvE play mechanic squeezed into a competitive game mode. Strategic planning, tactical execution and acheiving victory over opponents is what drives PvP'ers who prefer that mode. Of the items you've named, this "featue" of unlocking is the most controversial issue that has caused changes in every update since it was introduced. Whether one likes it in Guild Wars PvP or not, it should not be automatically included in a list of "what PvP'ers" want.

I like your other ideas though. But for the competitive PvE mode to work, you'd have to change things a bit so that the team builds won't be stacked and discriminatory like UW/FoW is right now. Right or wrong, alot of less popular classes end up leaving a lot of gamers without the frequent chance to participate.

The way they can do it is to give a bonus multiplier (items, EXP, or something else) based on the number of different classes in your group. If it allowed six characters max, you would get a 5x bonus for having a team made up of two Warriors and 4 other classes. Maybe give an extra bonus (7x) for teams who bring in six different primaries.

Paladin_Adoni · Jul 17, 2005, 01:35 PM // 13:35

One of the long-term easiest ways to create a higher level of "unique" weapons is to split the weapons, litterally. A pommel, a Hilt, and a Blade for a sword. a grip, a haft, and a head for staff. when you salvage a weapon, you choose the part you want to "try" and salvage.

this way, a sundering fellblade of fortitude would actually look different to a furious fellblade of enchanting.

without actually adding any new content (other than graphics) you have trippled the veriety of the look of weapons.

alternatively you could greatly increase the "graphic" pool that a weapon chooses from. perhaps have 5 different types of fellblades, all that have that "look" but are each unique in some way. hell, I can create 3D weapon models designed for games in a few minutes, and im sure there are hundreds of other GW players who are the same. hold a competition or something.

basicly though, at the moment MOST (no, Im not trying to speak for everyone) PvEers are simply unhappy with the ratio of time/reward. where the reward is something of value. just sit in lions arch for 1/2 and hour to see what is of "value". increasing the drops so that spending an hour playing PvE results in at least one decent item, whether it be a weapon, an upgrade or a rune of value would silence a few of us for a while (to give you time to implement my first idea :P )

FFF_WarRaven · Jul 17, 2005, 01:51 PM // 13:51

oh just a suggestion or 2

extra storage in the guild hall, a merchant in the guild hall, possibly traders etc in the guild hall, and how about a full set of bots in the guild hall?

our guild hardly ever uses the guild hall for anything other than once and a great while play a gvg, seems like a waste of space and for all we had to go thru to get it, im like umm wtf, 4 bots and thats all? i understand the point to a guild hall, but who buys a mansion and doesn't stock it with furnishing and a full staff? i mean we don't use the guild hall to trade items or anything because that can be done anywhere.

and like i said im not concerned so much with looks, "What does it do and how well does it do it?"

and im not sure what this ranking staves or whatever their called is all about but it seems just another way to measure ones'...well you get me, just another vainity item, tho i have to admit the rank emotes are cool tho i have only seen a few.

our guild doesn't play much pvp because we spend our time looking for good items, without some of thoses we feel were not going to do good in a pvp, tho i understand its about teamwork pratice and skill, were just not organized enuff for that lol sad but true.Most of us like the adventure side of it, play the hero, or the bad guy, save the maiden, kill the dragon, find the treasure etc, etc.
And while pvp's can play pvp untill their eyeballs fall out, pve ends at the point that you finish the game, which is abrupt btw, and tho i know the game doesn't exactly end there, im like where's the ending movie or what have you ( everyone seems to never have a good ending, movies esp lol)

so pve'ers are stuck in an endless loop untill a new area is added or stuck waiting for a new expansion, or find enuff items to feel good about going into pvp, well at least enuff to feel satisfied with your character, or at least feel satisfied over the time i wasted trying to find something good, i myself like to look for items i can use on characters rather than to sell.

oh btw wth are clay bricks for? makes me think theres going to be some building going on later ot something, and one last thing, the healer bots, is it at all possible to get better ai on them , i mean if she's a healer why does she acts like a war, where she doesn't belong, and rather than rez'ing shes continues to fight, and eventually gets herself killed, and if she does stay alive, your basically waiting for the battle to finish before she does stare to bring you back to life, usually being the human players get brought back to life last, least in my experiences.

:::End Transmission:::

Da Cebuano · Jul 17, 2005, 03:05 PM // 15:05

All I'm asking is for more weapon skins(looks) for everything(hammers, swords, shields, axes etc....) also the armors... I have no Idea who designed some of them, although others are great the majority isn't. I mean there are alot of people who do, but I am not willing to shell out 1.4mill for an armor that makes me look like the tin man w/ funky markings. I mean whats so bad about making all armors look good? I personally like the way they approached the ascended gladiator set as Anet put an entirely new mesh instead of just redid textures. Wish they did more effort on the 15k plateset/dragon/ascalon/ and add in a knight set but the one shown in the game cover, the knight set and the ones worn by NPC have nothing on it.

Also, please add more customizability to PvP char creation, you should be able to use all looks you've unlocked in game. As well as Custom color not pre set.

Also, what's w/ the constant nerfing of item drops and item drops get stupider every day. Gold flamberge of trollslaying -_- not to mention staves w/ 3 different profession mods, one which is exclusive to another prof.

Other than that, I love the effort and dedication of GW staff. I still enjoy the game very much, just not as much as when it first launched. The nerfs kinda slowly kill it for us pve people.

Aniewiel · Jul 17, 2005, 03:18 PM // 15:18

What a great message, Gaile. I think you've reaffirmed to everyone that you guys at ANet are indeed "listening" to the community.

I would appreciate more customization in armors and weaponry. While we may be preternaturally attached to our Goldskin, it'd be nice to be able to change it ever so slightly to fit our personalities.

rocinantae · Jul 17, 2005, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Some of the bosses ive fought have dropped utter crap compared with how hard they were to fight. Atleast give me something special. Not just some gold. The Dragons at majestys rock for instance. 5 bone dragons guarding a few chest on top of a easily guarded hill in an out of the way place. Oh and the undead that spawn behind you when you attack the dragons.....And I got nothing but a few measly gold drops. I dont have the time to go on adventures like that and get nothing. I could be playing other games that will actually reward me for my skill. And no im not asking for the +40 vorpal sword of dismembering. Just make the drops = to the monster im fighting.

Da Cebuano · Jul 17, 2005, 04:35 PM // 16:35

ALSO PLEASE!! GIVE US THE OPTION TO NOT WEAR A CAPE AND JUST WEAR A GUILD EMBLEM OR SOMETHING TO REPRESENT OUR GUILD, BUT HAVE AN OPTION TO NOT WEAR A CAPE -_- ty for listening.

Warskull · Jul 17, 2005, 05:05 PM // 17:05

The problem isn't that players can't get uber items. It is the way that you get gold drops that is not functional. It has been improving lately, but still needs worked on. If you farm the right area you are likely to see a few gold drops easily, however this requires you run that same area over and over. While farming can be very fun if done right (think time trials) most players don't enjoy this sort of play.

Lets look at the history of farming:
At first the best way to get gold drops was to run solo into certain gold heavy areas and kill things over and over again. This was remedied by code that punishes players for soloing. It really wasn't done very well.

Solo farming continued aiming for getting gold instead of items (or keept trying for items via brute force), this time a better approach was taken. Level design was altered to discourage a solo player from running around killing everything (like adding enchantment stripping to riverside.)

Currently farming still exists and in its most efficient form small groups of 3-4 players run an area over an over again going for drops. You can get a gold or two a day in the right area this way. So what is the problem here? If I play the game normally I am very unlikely to ever see a gold drop. In addition botting for gold is now grown extremely popular (you can see the things everywhere now.)

So what can be done? Well take a few things into consideration, thanks to the rune trader even superior runes (a select few) are worth nothing now and most gold items aren't so good. In reality a PvP equivalent item can be obtained from a trader that will outperform most golds. Guild wars is about the skills you select and not the items. I run around with random items I pick up most of the time and outperform most players (although it seems most players ate lead paint chips as a kid, so that isn't saying much.) So the gold drop rate can safely be raised without really ruining the game and making PvE characters "uber godly pwnage machines" or whatever term the masses are using these days. Thus the drop rate should be balanced. Some gold drop heavy areas should be lowered while everywhere should be increased. This way farming becomes just playing the game however you want. Instead of picking an area based on how often it drops golds you can pick an area to hunt for items in based on what kind of a sword you want. The other issue is add a bit more variety to the item art. The players PvE are hungry for different looking items. Have you seen how they drool over fellblades, stormbows, eternal shields, and fiery dragon swords? Yet shadow bows and shadow shields are unloved. This is because the shadow items look generic while the other items have a unique look. Players want a variety of unique looking items. The items don't necesarily have to have insane stats to make people happy, however a variety of unique looking items actually dropping with decent stats will make PvE players very happy.

Just observe people in LA, what they want is simple, shiny stuff. Honestly you could make a cool looking sword, make it a gold drop, and give the mods "intestinal discomfort" and "ineptness" and they would buy it even though their character feels like he ate a bad burrito when wielding it and the sword itself couldn't slice through butter.

FFF_WarRaven · Jul 17, 2005, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Just observe people in LA, what they want is simple, shiny stuff. Honestly you could make a cool looking sword, make it a gold drop, and give the mods "intestinal discomfort" and "ineptness" and they would buy it even though their character feels like he ate a bad burrito when wielding it and the sword itself couldn't slice through butter.

Looks don't mean jack to me if its not a max dmg and works properly. There needs to be a good mix of both, like i picked up a cool looking shadow shield, and was +12 or something vs plants....PLANTS?? i mean how long do i plan to be fighing plants( i usually try to skip the wilds untill i need skill points/quests that give specific skills, not a big fan of that area.)...few life pods few reed stalkers..comon...or a 12%(vs) char on a gold sword...at lvl 20 do i really need a (vs charr) sword? i think not. (plus customizing at 20% all time is better than most mods, tho initself isn't really all that much per hit.)

A lvl 20 with a mid weapon still seems to do a lot of dmg because of attribute lvls, and from what i have been told you need to have, say for a sword or other weapon, your attributes at 12 just to get 100%?( there's a chart somewhere showing the percentages) altho armor ratings on ememys also affect this, as well as skills etc.

Myself as well as others would like to see (pve) a mix of good looks and approite weapons and items to our lvl, that help us survive a little longer...this way im not facing a hord of avicari braves at -60%DP for most of the sitting, basically requiring a restart/rezone, to avoid dying every 15 seconds.

So many different mods on different weapons that might only get used for a short amout of time...saving all thoses weapons takes up what little space we have in storage, and on our persons.

Quote:

The problem isn't that players can't get uber items. It is the way that you get gold drops that is not functional. It has been improving lately, but still needs worked on. If you farm the right area you are likely to see a few gold drops easily, however this requires you run that same area over and over. While farming can be very fun if done right (think time trials) most players don't enjoy this sort of play.

Acctually as i see it the gold drops have gotten much, much better. You can get anywhere from 300-500+, in some cases with a full group i have gotten 1k, much better than it was a few updates ago , i dont see getting gold as much of a problem now.

ok i'll stop replying to this thread before they bann me lol, i think i made all my points by now.

:::End Transmission:::

Galatea · Jul 17, 2005, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

So, let me propose a thought: It's not "uber items," so much as "ultra cool and rare and wonderful" items, for many of us. It's "Maybe nobody in the entire server has this exact bow, or this cool shield, or this spiffy pair of Charr Fur Slippers." So I want to ask you this:

If items had the same combat-related stats, so as to avoid the unbalancing effects of uber items, but were unique in appearance, would that satisfy some of the craving? I'll be honest: For me, it would be a significant thing indeed. I wore Goldskin in Diablo II. (Assuming a few of you played that game.

) I wore that armour because it was gosh-darned beautiful, even though I had several pieces that were better in defense. It wasn't a strategic choice, it was a choice of the heart, built on my love for my Amazon and my connectedness with my character.

YES! x9347347238742
I think more items with unique appearances and same stats would definitely satisfy many of the cravings the GW community has. Additionally, I made a post in the suggestions forum that suggested questing for these said items, and the inclusion or more novelty items that are fun to use [dwarven ale, etc.]. Like you, sometimes I wore armor in other games because it looked pretty f'n awesome, even though I could get better armor/stats from some cheap cloth robes.

And Gaile, now that you've mentioned Charr Fur Slippers.. I kind of want a pair of those, too. lol!

Xoduz · Jul 17, 2005, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Unlocking and item acquisition is a PvE play mechanic squeezed into a competitive game mode. Strategic planning, tactical execution and acheiving victory over opponents is what drives PvP'ers who prefer that mode. Of the items you've named, this "featue" of unlocking is the most controversial issue that has caused changes in every update since it was introduced. Whether one likes it in Guild Wars PvP or not, it should not be automatically included in a list of "what PvP'ers" want.

I beg to differ. Unlocking and item acquisition is niether PvE nor PvP, it's Roleplaying. Also, I find the skill aquisition system to be hugely popular not only in my guild, but specifically the players that come from other ORPG's like UO, WoW, SB, L2, DAoC, etc.

Maybe you want instant gratification in the ways of UAS, but many players who like to grind feel the opposite of you. There are players who do want to be rewarded for their time. They do want to feel like they accomplished something for their "Strategic planning, tactical execution and acheiving victory." Pretty much, that is why they play roleplaying games.

Let me go back to something you said earlier in the thread,
"A team with 100s of hours towards 'unlocking' in all classes is inherently at an advantage to someone who hasn't put 'unlocking' and PvE time in."
Of course, but you need to remember that there is a learning curve. A team with 100s of hours can beat a team with 1000s of hours played at any time.

And that is why I play GW's

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondon

I like your other ideas though. But for the competitive PvE mode to work, you'd have to change things a bit so that the team builds won't be stacked and discriminatory like UW/FoW is right now. Right or wrong, alot of less popular classes end up leaving a lot of gamers without the frequent chance to participate.

The way they can do it is to give a bonus multiplier (items, EXP, or something else) based on the number of different classes in your group. If it allowed six characters max, you would get a 5x bonus for having a team made up of two Warriors and 4 other classes. Maybe give an extra bonus (7x) for teams who bring in six different primaries.

Thank you.

You could do modifiers, but I really think the solution to that problem is complexity and diversity of monsters. Each wave needs to be targeted to destroy a different profession, so that imbalance weakens your chances

PieXags · Jul 17, 2005, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Finally, I actually got to read this thread I heard about while guildwarsguru was down for me.

Anyways, to comment on some of Gaile's statements and questions...

Absolutely, more weapon models/skins/general appearances would please me a lot. One thing I'm all about is character appearance and being able to create a unique and creative looking character, the more character appearance options the better.

My only problem is...as I'm sure people've noticed, I started a few...threads on the nerf drops, and how it's becoming increasingly difficult to get money in the game 'cept for being a droknar runner or someone who gets lucky.

I'm all for new looking items, armor, hair styles, whatever. So long as we're able to afford them reasonably enough and they don't get overpriced beyond all reason, like storm bows or magma shields or something, because that tends to happen and I'm sure that'd piss a lot of people off. Last thing we need is huge prices on items that just look different with less ways to get money (kinda like our situation right now).

You get the idea.

Borealis · Jul 17, 2005, 08:37 PM // 20:37

I'd love to see more weapon skins/looks etc. on weapons, coolness is a factor in cost of weapons. Look at the cost of any decent crystalline sword out there, people are paying upwards of 200-400k for a good crystalline, why? Because it's friggin cool looking. I know this isn't WoW, but thats one of the reasons I've started playing it, some of the weapons/skins in that game are amazing....and what other game can you find a weapon called "the lobotomizer"? Not that I want something named exactly that in GW.

Would still be nice to see *some* better drops in high level areas (FoW and UW). I've done almost all the quests in Fissure so now it's loot hunting time down there, every time I go in there I come out frustrated because all the junk I get down there, I don't come out of Fissure with, it gets sold directly to the forgemaster. Considering the time it takes just to get to forgemaster and that you're paying to go down there. Something cool besides x10 chaos axes would be nice.

Pandora's box · Jul 17, 2005, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Gaile, As you see in these forums many discussions are about the quality and droprate of yellow/purple items. They are very hard to find and if one finds a rare than the exitement is often followed by disappointment when the item has no usefull qualities.

I think more items with unique appearances is a very good idea if it meets these conditions:
-They should be 'yellow'.
-They should have usefull abillities (not just a nice looking item thats only 'precious').
-They should drop frequently.